Post Office hero Alan Bates has told MPs the Post Office is a 'dead duck' that should be sold.
The former subpostmaster said the business will be a 'money pit' for taxpayers for years and called for it to be sold. It came as officials said the cost of the compensation for the Horizon scandal could top £1billion.
Mr Bates is testifying to a committee that will also hear from a former Post Office boss who claimed he was ordered to slow down payments to victims of the Horizon IT scandal will appear before MPs today.
Former chairman Henry Staunton, who was last week locked in a bitter war of words with Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch, doubled down on his claim he was ordered to slow down payments.
The Horizon IT scandal saw more than 700 subpostmasters handed criminal convictions between 1999 and 2015 as Fujitsu's faulty Horizon system made it appear as though money was missing at their branches. Hundreds of subpostmasters are still awaiting compensation despite the Government announcing that those who have had convictions quashed are eligible for £600,000 payouts.
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Mr Staunton said he'd tried to secure a pay rise for Mr Read, who was thinking of quitting because he wasn't paid enough.
But he said he was given short shrift by former Business Secretary Grant Shapps.
Pressed on the gap between executive pay he said: "There's an enormous discrepancy, as of course there is in and the other commercial organisation between the person on the shop floor and the Chief Executive officer of course."
Former Post Office chairman Henry Staunton has said that he is a victim of a "smear campaign" after a fallout with Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
"But I will at least have achieved something if the sunlight of disinfectant, which the Secretary of State so approves of, means that Government now lives up to its promises.
"What the public wants to know is why was everything so slow? ... And why does everything remain so slow? I've spoken up on matters of genuine public concern, have been fired, and am now subject to a smear campaign."
Addressing allegations about his conduct, Mr Staunton confirmed that an investigation was ongoing.
He said that an allegation of politically incorrect comments made by himself had been made in an 80 page report relating to Mr Read.
He said: "This was an investigation not into me. This was an investigation made into chief executive Nick Read."
He said he "strenuously denied" the claims about him.
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The former Post Office chairman said that he favoured making ?1million payments to former postmasters.
He told MPs he'd told chief executive Nick Read that the offers need to "be seen to be generous". Mr Staunton said ?600,000 settlements aren't enough and cases should be reassessed.
He told MPs: "I know that sounds a lot of money, but actually I said I wasn't sure that the British public would would have such an issue with that as far as they would prefer it to be generosity than to be tightfisted and anxious."
Mr Staunton said that when he made his claims, someone was finally being honest.
He told MPs: "We all knew that things were moving far too slowly. And you've heard from three postmasters today who said it even more eloquently than I could.
"And the reason why people have latched on to what I said in the Sunday Times was that finally someone was being honest about how deep seated the problems were and why nothing was being done.
"I still think that more could be done, at least to make compensation more generous, and the process of getting justice less bureaucratic."
Mr Staunton maintains he was told that if he could "pull any levers", he should.
He said he "wasn't going to go anywhere near a morally wrong" decision. Following a meeting with a senior civil servant, he said he'd ruled out slowing down compensation.
Asked if he stood by his previous statements, Mr Staunton said: "I do."
He told the committee: "I got the very clear message that money is money is tight." And describing a note he made at the time he said: "All I was doing is representing what I was told."
Former Post Office chairman Henry Staunton is in the hotseat now - and he's doubling down on his claims.
Describing a meeting with senior civil servant Sarah Munby, he said he was told that "money was tight".
He said he was told "this is no time to rip off the band-aid" and said he'd have to look at "three levers" - including compensation.
Mr Staunton said: "It's such an unusual conversation that I did a full note of it actually used putting in quotation marks what I was told. And I was accused of being a liar until thankfully, I found this note just just a few days ago."
Henry Staunton - previous Post Office chairmanCommittee chairman Liam Byrne is far from impressed.
He asks Post Office chairman Mr Read if he plans to resign. Asked why he'd asked that question, the MP said: "Well, because we've got a redress scheme that's in the wrong place. Culture that's in the wrong place. Problems with the information given to this committee.
"I'd like to know whether you are planning to stay in post to deliver the redress schemes that we have just heard are not performing in the way that they should."
Mr Read replied: "I want to make sure that we get justice for all postmasters and that is what I will seek to do."
Huge pay gaps in the Post Office show how the business is "rotten to the core", bosses have been told.
Labour MP Ian Lavery pointed out that two of three postmasters who gave evidence were earning less than ?20,000 a year. He told bosses: "Your bonuses on top of the hundreds of thousands of pounds in wages was 20 times more than their annual salary. Does this not really show how the Post Office is rotten to the core?"
Mr Read responded: "I'm not going to answer that question, clearly I'm clearly well paid and I'm clearly in a position where I'm trying to make sure that the commercial sustainability of the post office is going to be there for the next generation as well."
Postmasters and sub-postmasters feel undervalued and aren't paid properly, the committee has heard.
Tory MP Antony Higginbotham said: "I'm sure we've all been contacted by postmasters and subpostmasters, quite a few, and they all share broadly the same perspective, which is the Post Office hasn't changed that as postmasters and subpostmasters they feel undervalued on their remunerated and they don't feel like they've got the ear of the executive team."
Mr Read responded: "I would want to reassure them that we have postmasters at the centre of everything we are trying to do, both from a remuneration perspective, from an engagement perspective, from a communication perspective and a support perspective."
Challenged over the fact that some earn under ?20,000, Mr Read said he'd be looking to move pay forward.
Five former investigators who are being probed are still employed by the Post Office, Mr Read said.
Labour MP Ian Lavery said: "This reads like a badly scripted gangster movie".
An investigation is ongoing into a 'fraud squad' who are accused of intimidation during the Horizon scandal.
Mr Read said: "We have five individuals who were investigators or an investigation manager in their job titles still in the organisation. I'm not going to describe what process we are doing, but we are looking into allegations that have been made against those that there are investigations that are ongoing as a consequence."
The Post Office revealed that it has had another 1,000 claims for compensation since ITV's series on the Horizon scandal.
"The closure was potentially looming until the excellent ITV series when we've had over 1,000 new claims in, which I think is fantastic by the way, because my job is to pay out fair compensation," Simon Recaldin, remediation matters director at the Post Office, told MPs on the Business and Trade Committee.
He said this now makes it more difficult to figure out when the compensation programme will be completed. "For you to now ask me to put a timescale on that is going to be challenging because I'd already dealt with 2,500 claims and I'd made the offers for 2,500 claims, and we were going through the process of resolving any disputes in that," he said.
"Therefore, I had a trajectory for those towards the end of this year and March next year to close all those down. Now, with another 1,000 cases in there, I have to reassess that plan in terms of how I deliver those."
Mr Read said he supports new legislation which will clear hundreds of convicted sub-postmasters.
This comes despite a letter to Justice Secretary Alex Chalk suggesting the opposite was true. Mr Read wrote then that the Post Office would be "bound" to oppose more than 360 appeals.
It was accompanied by a note from solicitor Nick Vamos. Mr Read said he had not asked for the advice, but felt he should pass it on to the Government.
He told MPs: "I want people to get through this process and it mass exoneration is the right thing then let's make sure that we get the right legislation in place to deliver mass exoneration."
Mr Read said it "must be possible" that subposters have accepted less than they are entitled to.
"We're very keen and we've had a discussion with Government about an appeals process," he stated.
A "tranche" of Horizon victims have come forward following ITV drama Mr Bates Vs The Post Office, the Post Office chief said.
Asked about the long delays for sub-postmasters awaiting financial redress, Nick Read said: "It's immensely frustrating and it's stressful and distressing for those victims as well. Clearly, it's extraordinarily complex."
Mr Read said he's not had any written instructions to speed up payments to victims.
He said he hasn't had any conversations with Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch about it.
Mr Byrne said: "I think the committee is pretty surprised that you've not had written instructions to speed up the resolution of redress in one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in British history."
Mr Read said: "It's a it's an absolutely given that that is what we are trying to do."
The current Post Office chief executive, Nick Read, is up now.
He was asked if the Post Office had been "dragging its feet". He responded: "No, I don't think we have. I think we've had some success in terms of the speed with which we paid."
Committee chairman Liam Byrne then pressed Mr Read on the allegations by Henry Staunton that he'd been ordered to slow down payments.
" I can categorically say that nobody in my team or myself has received any instruction from the Government about slowing down compensation," he said.
Asked if Mr Staunton lied he said: "I think he's misinterpreted or perhaps misunderstood the conversation he had."
(Parliament TV)The compensation scheme may have to be widened to bring in further victims of the scandal, including the families of those who took their own lives.
Dr Hugdell described the impact on families as "horrific". He said: "There was a chap who went to prisonand he said he'd had it easier than his wife because he wasn'tin the community."
He added: "There is no mechanism for family members to be compensated."
Fellow solicitor James Hartley warned of long delays dealing with complex cases.
He said: "I'm quite sad to say that of the more complex claims we only have two that have settled from the offers from 12. "
And he continued: "We stress it is going to get worse, which is why we need a radical change of approach."
A solicitor who represents victims of the Horizon scandal said that hundreds of settled cases may need to be reviewed.
Dr Neil Hugdell told MPs: "I can't find an offer that I can sign off without any further interrogation... I'd love to sign some of them off and tell them this is a decent offer, you can get on with your life."
That brings the second panel, featuring the three former sub-postmasters, to a close.
Committee chairman Liam Byrne told them: "We are, I'm afraid, shocked. and saddened to hear that none of you have seen any acceleration in the speed of delivering your redress."
Mr Bates branded the Post Office a "dead duck" and said it will be a "money pit" for taxpayers for years.
He told MPs he believes it should be sold off, stating: "It will not change and you cannot change it.
"My personal view about the Post Office is it's a dead duck and it has been for years and it's going to be a money pit for the taxpayer for years to come.
"And you should sell it to someone like Amazon for a pound."
And quizzed about rumours that the organisation had been told to go slow on compensation, he said: "It wouldn't surprise me."
Mr Bates told MPs: "This has been going on for years, as you well know, and I can't see any end to it."
He went on: "We keep coming back to this time after time after time - pay people.
"There's a lot of distractions, a lot of other things brought up, thrown up all the time - but just get on and pay people."
Tim Brentnall, who is still battling to get full financial redress more than three years after his conviction was overturned.
He said ?600,000 "doesn't go anywhere near" redressing the ordeal people like him have gone through.
He said people in the business where he worked shunned the shop after he was painted as a fraudster. The Horizon victim said he had hidden away as a result of his ordeal.
He said he'd been accused of stealing more than ?20,000. He added: "I sold my car, borrowed money from my parents and the business I paid the money back to to avoid the theft charge, but they then then charged me with false accounting."
(Parliament TV)Former sub-postmaster Tony Downey has described the harrowing impact the Horizon scandal had on him.
He told MPs: "So we started our business in 2001, had shortfalls from day one. I was suspended but allowed to have my job back if we had ?3,000 to pay into the system.
"And then I had the threat of if I had any more shortfalls, it was my fault and my business would be closed. Then I kept them hidden from Post Office and from everybody else until we run out of money and used credit cards.
"We were forced to sell the business, declared bankrupt. I had a nervous breakdown. We left the village to run away."
He said he'd pulled his daughter out of school and had "never been back to the UK for 15 years".
Tony Downey, former sub-postmasterPostmaster Alan Bates has told the committee that that compensation scheme isn't getting faster and fairer.
He said it is "very disappointing", and added: "I can't see any end to it." Questioned over whether he'd seen improvements, Mr Bates said: "Well, speaking personally of my claims, I say no."
The frustrated campaigner, who has called for penalties of ?1,000 a day, said: "Just get on and sort it."
Alan BatesMr Cresswell said he'd been told that people would resign as a result about Henry Staunton's behaviour.
Asked by Tory MP Jonathan Gullis if this was the case, the civil servant said there was a "level of anxiety" about Mr Staunton.
Mr Cresswell said: "His behaviour was such that we might see resignations from the board." It is alleged that Mr Staunton tried to stop a whistleblowing inquiry into his conduct and influence a key appointment.
Labour MP Andy McDonald has demanded aggravated damages for victims to ensure similar cases don't happen again.
He described the scandal as "the most heinous crimes committed under the auspices of the state".
He said this would "make sure that we deter people from ever going there again, mistreating people in this way".
He went on: "This was born of malice. People deliberately set out to cause this. That's that that's what's caused the outrage in the country. Where is the reflection of aggravated and exemplary damages in this scheme?"
A Labour MP has said the Government needs to secure a "meaningful" commitment from Fujitsu about how much it will pay.
The committee earlier heard packages for postmasters is likely to top ?1billion. As it stands, that is set to be paid by taxpayers, although the IT firm has indicated a willness to pay up.
Andy McDonald said: "They (Fujitsu) came here with lots of expressions of sorrow and commitments. What are you doing to actually nail it down?" He said he was surprised that a sum hasn't been agreed already.
Mr Cresswell told the committee: "I think the principle of the moral obligation has been stated. We are in contact with Fujitsu, but I'm afraid we have not at this point achieved or you have said that you think that we should do."
Members of the public will be "astonished" that taxpayers could foot a bill of more than ?1billion over the scandal.
Tory MP Mark Pawsey said: "I think many of our constituents would be astonished to find that they, as taxpayers are having to contribute this money because of the bad decisions of the management within the post office."
Mr Cresswell responded that there is still discussion about how much of the bill software developer Fujitsu foots.
He said: " I think the the public mood is very much behind the postmasters, rightly, but I think that the question about who contributes towards the costs overall, taxpayer or someone else is still very much alive."
