8 key moments as MPs grill Post Office and Fujitsu bosses over Horizon scandal
Top bosses from the Post Office and the firm behind the flawed IT system that resulted in postmasters being wrongfully convicted have been hauled over the coals by MPs.
Fujitsu Director Paul Patterson said the Japanese firm was "truly sorry" for its role in the Post Office scandal - and said it had a "moral obligation" to contribute to compensation. He said the company was aware of "bugs and errors" in its Horizon programme and it provided evidence to the Post Office which led to staff being wrongly accused of swindling cash.
Meanwhile, Post Office boss Nick Read blamed a "culture of denial" for the organisation's slow progress in paying compensation to innocent postmasters. Campaigner Alan Bates told the Commons Business and Trade Committee that people were "suffering" and "dying" while they wait for payouts, while former postmistress Jo Hamilton said trying to get compensation resulted in being treated "like you're a criminal all over again".
It comes amid a ferocious backlash over the 25-year scandal, in the wake of ITV drama 'Mr Bates vs the Post Office'. Rishi Sunak was forced to announce plans for new legislation to swiftly exonerate and compensate victims of the widest miscarriage of justice in British history.
Fujitsu's Paul Patterson was grilled by MPs over the Post Office scandal (PRU/AFP via Getty Images)Here's what we learned from a bumper Commons evidence session over the scandal.
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Campaigner Alan Bates told MPs victims were dying waiting for compensation (PRU/AFP via Getty Images)Fujitsu boss says firm has 'moral' duty to pay compensation
Fujitsu Europe Director Paul Patterson said the firm had a "moral" duty to contribute to the compensation for subpostmasters wrongly prosecuted as a result of the flawed Horizon IT system. He told MPs: "Fujitsu would like to apologise for our part in this appalling miscarriage of justice.
"We were involved from the very start, we did have bugs and errors in the system - and we did help the Post Office in their prosecutions of the sub-postmasters. For that we are truly sorry."
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The Government has set aside more than £1billion in taxpayers' cash for the Post Office to pay out compensation to victims. Tory Minister Kevin Hollinrake suggested to MPs today that the final bill could exceed that.
In a major development, Mr Patterson said he has spoken to Fujitsu bosses in Japan and the company expects to speak to the Government about how much compensation it should contribute.
Paul Patterson from Fujitsu and Post Office boss Nick Read were hauled before MPs to answer questions on the Horizon IT scandal (Parliament TV)Post Office knew of 'bugs and errors' in Horizon early on
Mr Patterson said Fujitsu was aware of "bugs and errors" in the system early on and insisted the firm informed the Post Office about problems with the system.
"Yes, there was evidence from us," he told the Committee. "We were supporting the Post Office in their prosecutions. There was data given from us to them to support those prosecutions. The information shared with the Post Office as part of our contract with them was very clear - the Post Office also knew there were bugs and errors." The Post Office later denied it was aware of issues with the system.
Mr Patterson couldn't say when the glitches were discovered, telling MPs: "I can't answer a month or a year. There were known bugs and errors in the system at a very early stage.
"I know there were bugs and errors when it was rolled out; in large IT projects there were will always be some bugs and errors, particularly of this scale. The important thing is what do we do with that information. Did we share that information with the Post Office? Yes, we did."
IT system did allow remote access - despite Post Office denials
Paul Patterson, chief executive of Europe for Fujitsu Services, confirmed a key point, which is whether the Horizon IT system could be accessed remotely. The Post Office repeatedly denied this.
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Mr Patterson told the Business and Trade Committee "we have already stated that there was remote access to the systems" but denied there was a "covert unit" gaining access to subpostmasters' computers without their knowledge.
"The support and the interventions remotely from Fujitsu has been documented and it is clear the Post Office was certainly aware of that remote access, and that was clear for some period of time."
Nick Read, chief executive of the Post Office, was asked whether he was aware but denied it. He said: "I've only been in the organisation since 2019, so it's difficult for me to comment."
He came under fire for failing to give a date when the organisation knew remote access to subpostmasters' Horizon systems was possible.
Business and Trade Committee chairman Liam Byrne tells him: "Why can you not answer that question? It is fundamental to this case. You must surely have had time in four years to cut to the heart of this issue, which is when did the Post Office know remote access to terminals was possible." Mr Byrne added: "I think we are both surprised and disappointed that you've not got that question answered on the table."
Post Office Chief Executive Nick Read had a rough ride at the committee (Parliament TV)Post Office boss admits there was 'culture of denial'
Nick Read blamed a "culture of denial" for the Post Office dragging its feet over compensation wrongfully convicted subpostmasters. He insisted he had not "seen any evidence" that executives misled ministers, the courts or Parliament at any stage.
Asked whether he believed the Post Office prosecuted the innocent despite knowing the system was flawed, he said: "I sincerely hope not. But I have not had evidence to that effect." Challenged over why the Post Office fought attempts to get compensation innocent postmasters for so long, he said: "A culture of denial. I can only assume that that is the case.
"It's a lack of understanding and perhaps a lack of curiosity of really what is going on. I think that is the most important cultural challenge that I have in my organisation is to ensure that everybody in the organisation sees and understands absolutely what has been going on. I don't think that was the case certainly when I joined in 2019."
Government 'hopes' to pay out all compensation by August
Kevin Hollinrake, the Minister responsible for postal affairs, said he hoped compensation will be paid to wrongfully convicted postmasters by August. "It's not a deadline," he says. "It's an ambition we want to deliver this scheme by."
Mr Hollinrake admitted "no amount of compensation can ever make good what's happened in the past".
People are 'dying' waiting for compensation
Campaign hero Alan Bates appeared alongside another victim of the scandal, Jo Hamilton. Both of them hit out at the compensation scheme while Mr Bates said victims are "suffering" and "dying" while they wait for payouts.
Mr Bates, a key figure in the ITV drama on the scandal, said: "There is no reason at all why full financial redress shouldn't have been delivered by now. It's gone on for far too long. People are suffering, they're dying. It just seems to be tied up in bureaucracy." He revealed he still hasn't received a first offer of compensation.
Ms Hamilton also described the scheme as "painfully slow", adding: "It's almost like you're a criminal all over again - you've got to justify everything. It's almost like you are being retried because everything you say you'd like they say justify that. It just goes on, and on, and on. Everything has to be backed up with paperwork - it's just nonsense."
Lord James Arbuthnot said many victims were still living "hand to mouth" after being forced into bankruptcy by the Post Office scandal. Solicitor Neil Hudgell told MPs only three of his former subpostmaster clients who had been criminally convicted had received compensation. He said: "Within the convicted cohort of clients that we have, of the 73, three have been fully paid out."
Jo Hamilton, former sub-postmistress, gave grim evidence to the Business and Trade Committee over the Post Office Horizon IT scandal (Getty Images)Ministers must speed up exoneration to stop people 'going to their graves with convictions'
Last week, Rishi Sunak announced the Government will introduce a law to exonerate hundreds of postmasters who lives were torn apart amid public outcry over the scandal.
But with fewer than 100 people having had their convictions overturned, Lord Arbuthnot said there was an "urgent" need for speed with the legislation. "We need to get these convictions overturned as a matter of speed," Lord Arbuthnot he told MPs. "We've got to deal with this - and we've got to deal with it quickly".
He welcomed the legislation, saying: "This is a mass problem that required a mass solution. The announcement on the overturning of convictions... that announcement was very, very welcome." But he added: "I hope they [the judiciary] will accept these cases need urgent overturning because we can't have more people going to their graves with convictions still on their record".
He also told MPs the scandal was so difficult because there was people convicted of a crime "up against the most trusted brand in the country". "When they were vilified and humilated, the brand then rode into overdrive," he said.
Lawyer warns there could be hundreds more victims
Dr Hudgell, executive chairman at Hudgell Solicitors, which works with wrongly convicted subpostmasters, said there could be hundreds more victims. He agreed with MPs that many could have been "short changed" with people settling without legal advice.
The lawyer also raised concerns that "tens of thousands" could be impacted if the families of affected subpostmasters are taken into account. He told MPs: "It's not just the subpostmasters here that suffered greatly. There's another class of people that cannot be compensated in a way. That's the spouses, the children, the parents.
"The spouses that have miscarried because of the stress of things, spouses that have committed suicide because of the stress of things.The kids that have got behavioural disorders that ended up out of school early and whose adult life is now shattered because of that." He added: "Parents that have died estranged from family members. And that's another strand of this scandal that needs to be looked at. In the same way as people that were not subpostmasters, but suffered financial loss directly, they are not compensatable at the moment. So, the scandal is in the thousands, but it could be in the tens of thousands."
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